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Episode 47

Training for Workplace Violence | Terry Conlon

This week we’re going on to the front lines of workplace violence to uncover the full extent of its impact on fellow security professionals and what they’re exposed to on a daily basis. 

It’s easy to become overly focused in your specific area or speciality but there is much we can learn from our colleagues across the industry who are experiencing similar challenges in different scenarios. As EP professionals, what lessons can we learn from the solutions they’re implementing?

On this week’s show we catch up with Terry Conlon, Training Manager at RFC Security, based out of Ireland. With Terry’s help we’re going to unpack this topic so that we can get a broader idea of the issues faced by our industry colleagues and what we can learn from their experiences.

In this episode we’ll discover:

  • The shocking statistics that lay bare the extent of workplace violence that security professionals are dealing with.
  • The impact that this exposure is having on our colleagues and across the wider industry.
  • Where we’re lacking as an industry and what we can do to address those shortcomings.
  • And finally, we’ll take a look at the security scene in Ireland, the unique challenges and how the operating environment differs from the UK and US.

Unsurprisingly, a lot of the problems are rooted in training standards and as Terry so aptly puts it…

“If you don't address the fundamental flaws within the basic training, you're leaving yourself exposed and you're leaving your employees exposed.”

More about Terry:

Terry has more than 23 years of experience in the security industry with 15 years at the management level. A pioneer of training development and technical innovations within the industry, as well as an experienced profit protection and security consultant.

He has a Postgraduate degree in Security Management, Counter Fraud & Counter Corruption from the University of Portsmouth, and a Diploma in New Terrorism and Counter Measures as well a Diploma in Asset Risk Management from the Security Institute of Ireland. 

Terry established the Security Consultancy and Loss Prevention Auditing Department which operates as an internal & external commercial entity. In this role he oversees all of the training consultancies and audits myself as well as Marketing this division within the company.

He is also the President & Founder of The Security Safety and Risk Executive (SSRE))which is a not for profit group incorporating Security, and Risk experts from all sectors and the Business community with the sole aim of improving standards within the industry for clients and providers alike through complete transparency.

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RFC Security



More about the Circuit:

The Circuit Magazine is written and produced by volunteers, most of who are operationally active, working full time in the security industry. The magazine is a product of their combined passion and desire to give something back to the industry. By subscribing to the magazine you are helping to keep it going into the future. Find out more >

If you liked this podcast, we have an accompanying weekly newsletter called 'On the Circuit' where we take a deeper dive into the wider industry. Opt in here >

The Circuit team is:

  • Elijah Shaw
  • Jon Moss
  • Shaun West
  • Phelim Rowe

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Transcript
Terry Conlon:

if you don't address the fundamental flaws within the

Terry Conlon:

basic training, it is basically.

Terry Conlon:

And you're leaving yourself exposed.

Terry Conlon:

You're leaving your employees exposed.

Terry Conlon:

And ultimately if you want to mitigate risk and perform the service, you

Terry Conlon:

need to provide additional training.

Phelim:

Training priorities for workplace violence, Sean, Western myself.

Phelim:

We're going to be speaking with Terry Conlon training manager,

Phelim:

RFC security based out of Ireland.

Phelim:

This is a great segue from our recent workplace violence event.

Phelim:

And I think looking at the training angle, we'll bring everything

Phelim:

slightly closer to our EPC.

Phelim:

And corporate security community.

Phelim:

Uh, Sean, what are you looking forward to today?

Shaun:

We'll be interested to hear from Terry because I did miss the workplace

Shaun:

violence event and that'll tell you what's going to be a speaker also.

Shaun:

So be good to actually hear his feedback on his thoughts on, you

Shaun:

know, where it's going in Ireland, where he sees it going in that space.

Shaun:

So, yeah, just get his thoughts on that would be

Phelim:

very good in Ireland.

Phelim:

I don't think we often have colleagues from Ireland on the magazine or on the

Phelim:

podcast is Ireland somewhere that features a lot in the AP, uh, sort of calendar

Shaun:

question.

Shaun:

I mean, we have, we have a lot of members from Ireland and the association

Shaun:

and we have a number of Irish guys who come out, come over and work in the UK.

Shaun:

But myself personally, going over there and working in the preset,

Shaun:

I just, it doesn't cross my desk.

Phelim:

That's okay.

Phelim:

And, and, and that is a good snapshot.

Phelim:

You know how well acquainted we are with the other sector.

Phelim:

And why is Ireland, uh, more relevant today?

Phelim:

Well, obviously with the changes with Brexit and so on, uh, there are more

Phelim:

companies with offices in, uh, Ireland.

Phelim:

There's more companies with offices in both Ireland and the UK.

Phelim:

So I feel that this is also a line of inquiry.

Phelim:

We should go down with Terry.

Phelim:

So without further ado, let's meet Terry Conlon and let's

Phelim:

think about training priorities.

Phelim:

For workplace violence, not just for EAP, but also wider

Phelim:

corporate security colleagues.

Intro:

and now let's meet one of the contributors to the circuit

Intro:

magazine.

Phelim:

Workplace violence.

Phelim:

And the protector today, Sean West and myself are going to speak

Phelim:

with Terry Conran commercial and training manager of RFC security

Phelim:

group, uh, based out of Ireland.

Phelim:

It's supposed to have you on how are you doing

Terry Conlon:

good to see you guys

Phelim:

great to be here.

Phelim:

Great to see you.

Phelim:

And this is quite a timely topic because just last Friday, we had a whole

Phelim:

event dedicated to workplace violence.

Phelim:

I know you've worked quite a bit on this subject.

Phelim:

And so I guess let's start off with our three quick fire questions.

Phelim:

What in your eyes is wrong with the industry as it as, as

Phelim:

applied to workplace violence?

Phelim:

Right?

Terry Conlon:

Well, we, we, it's funny that we're having this

Terry Conlon:

conversation because we ran an internal survey ahead of Friday.

Terry Conlon:

And obviously I couldn't make it.

Terry Conlon:

I had to go to Germany and, but we ran a survey across our employees that

Terry Conlon:

are specifically assigned to retail, which is where we see predominantly

Terry Conlon:

the most of this issue occurring.

Terry Conlon:

And, and it has that the growth has been exponential since lockdown.

Terry Conlon:

Particularly in retail, particularly in cities.

Terry Conlon:

Um, there's so many caveats to that, but from what we see, the, the quality of

Terry Conlon:

candidate that's coming through, the level of training that's been afforded to them.

Terry Conlon:

And it's not mirroring what's needed.

Terry Conlon:

Now we did try internally to address that ourselves, the licensing system

Terry Conlon:

within Ireland is that is the PSA, which is the QQI level for training.

Terry Conlon:

Let's give them the cards.

Terry Conlon:

It's a, it's similar to the SLAA in the UK.

Terry Conlon:

And that's the basic training that they're given.

Terry Conlon:

That's constantly being looked at and reviewed.

Terry Conlon:

However, if you don't address the fundamental flaws within the

Terry Conlon:

basic training, it is basically.

Terry Conlon:

And you're leaving yourself exposed.

Terry Conlon:

You're leaving your employees exposed.

Terry Conlon:

And ultimately if you want to mitigate risk and perform the service, you

Terry Conlon:

need to provide additional training.

Terry Conlon:

And we find that we fail on me as the commercial training manager

Terry Conlon:

find that unless we provide various levels of training.

Terry Conlon:

So this is LMS training.

Terry Conlon:

In-person training, online training.

Terry Conlon:

Real-time training, um, and have that collaboration with operations

Terry Conlon:

and the management team that they buy into it also that we don't lose.

Terry Conlon:

And we don't dilute what we're trying to achieve across the portfolio

Terry Conlon:

of clients and staff that we have.

Terry Conlon:

We could lose it very, very quickly.

Terry Conlon:

So we find that the training is key and not training for the sake of trying.

Terry Conlon:

Well training with substance, um, and training that employees unsecurity

Terry Conlon:

particular we deal with combine into can believe in, both can use.

Terry Conlon:

So whether it's conflict management, physical intervention, um, basic

Terry Conlon:

guiding scale security awareness, again, identifying where the

Terry Conlon:

risks are and to the specific client, if the buy-in isn't there.

Terry Conlon:

And if we don't input that level of training, and that's what we see as the,

Terry Conlon:

as the biggest risk for our business.

Phelim:

Um, and what about you, you know, workplace violence as, as, as a topic.

Phelim:

W why are you even interested in this?

Phelim:

What w what about your backgrounds?

Phelim:

Can you tell us a little bit about where you're coming from?

Phelim:

So, my

Terry Conlon:

background fundamentally is I started off in the industry

Terry Conlon:

in 1990s, blush whenever I was six or seven, and as a society.

Terry Conlon:

In Dublin city center and working on the miles.

Terry Conlon:

And that's where I began.

Terry Conlon:

And over the course of time through experience through promotion and

Terry Conlon:

again, through education in going back to Portsmouth and studying the, the

Terry Conlon:

security degree and being involved with September the crime prevention and went

Terry Conlon:

out and designed, I'm not pigeonholing myself to one specific aspect of the

Terry Conlon:

industry, but rather standing back and looking at it as a whole absorbing,

Terry Conlon:

I'm always open to learning even now.

Terry Conlon:

Listen to you guys, wherever I go, I want to kind of take little ideas off

Terry Conlon:

people and use them as best I can.

Terry Conlon:

So my passion has come from, from the industry I work in from trying to be

Terry Conlon:

as good as we can personally, and as a business and learning and continuing to

Terry Conlon:

learn, because anybody that tells you, they know everything, regardless of what

Terry Conlon:

levels of qualifications or experience they have the shooting themselves in the

Terry Conlon:

fourth, because the industry changes.

Terry Conlon:

The life changes COVID has changed people's mindset.

Terry Conlon:

We see it ourselves and we have to be agile enough to understand

Terry Conlon:

that, you know, things change.

Terry Conlon:

We have to shift our mindset to address those issues.

Phelim:

And undoubtedly, that is one component of my next quickfire

Phelim:

question, but what would you like the completely uninitiated to better, you

Phelim:

know, realize, especially in the field of training for workplace violence.

Terry Conlon:

I would like to say more robust mechanism.

Terry Conlon:

And again, I can speak for our industry over here.

Terry Conlon:

So the basic guard that comes in with his future wife level for training for

Terry Conlon:

his PSA license is not afforded the level of training that is required.

Terry Conlon:

Um, and unless that training is given subsequently, he does not possess

Terry Conlon:

the skills as he naturally possesses them, whether he's coming from law

Terry Conlon:

enforcement or from a military background.

Terry Conlon:

He does not have those capabilities to deal with a situation that arises.

Terry Conlon:

And they happen every day.

Terry Conlon:

I see them come through on our daily reports, whether it's a.

Terry Conlon:

Uh, fret better.

Terry Conlon:

It's physical violence.

Terry Conlon:

It does happen every single day of the week.

Terry Conlon:

And unless guys are given the training, that's a word I would love

Terry Conlon:

to see again, what I was getting dancing around your question.

Terry Conlon:

I would love to see the training upscaled.

Terry Conlon:

I would love to see it over a longer period.

Terry Conlon:

I would love to see more substance.

Terry Conlon:

I would love to see it identify the various components that we've

Terry Conlon:

touched on in terms of conflict management, physical intervention.

Terry Conlon:

And not, again, we look at the vac acronym in terms of visual,

Terry Conlon:

auditory and kinesthetic.

Terry Conlon:

You know, most people idea would learn from doing, you know, they

Terry Conlon:

get, they can read all the stuff, all they want all day long, but as soon

Terry Conlon:

as they leave, they're forgotten.

Terry Conlon:

So I'd love to see a more robust training mechanism before people graduate

Terry Conlon:

and are given a PSA and licensed.

Shaun:

What do you find workplace violence is increasingly common in that

Shaun:

jurisdiction of corporate security.

Shaun:

Should it be HR that deals with these incidents and victims of the violence?

Terry Conlon:

Yeah, it should be.

Terry Conlon:

So, Hey, Josh, we'll deal with we'd rather, they didn't have them.

Terry Conlon:

And, and to mitigate them from happening to have the training

Terry Conlon:

in place from, from day one.

Terry Conlon:

And from when somebody goes on sites and whereas the, whether it's

Terry Conlon:

retail, corporate, whatever, whatever part of the industry that they go

Terry Conlon:

into, HR, HR has a fallback plan in terms of dealing with the asthma.

Terry Conlon:

What we've learned, we'd rather mitigate and give people the skills

Terry Conlon:

again, when we're talking about HR, we're talking about potentially claims.

Terry Conlon:

We're talking about somebody being injured.

Terry Conlon:

People have families set up kind of the aftermath.

Terry Conlon:

We would rather give them the skills as best we can.

Terry Conlon:

Um, obviously we can't take everybody's box personalities at different skill

Terry Conlon:

levels are different, but again, give them the foundations that

Terry Conlon:

they understand how to, um, help to mitigate something from occurring.

Terry Conlon:

What does no need for to happen?

Terry Conlon:

We've seen incidents happening.

Terry Conlon:

Uh, a can of Coke has been installed and a store has been absolutely destroyed

Terry Conlon:

for something that was one pound or two euros, where again, given the training

Terry Conlon:

and the understanding of the risk factors, and if you're a one security guard and

Terry Conlon:

you're dealing with 10 rugby players that are drunk from Wales or England or

Terry Conlon:

Northern Ireland, or from forever, can you deal with a situation like that for

Terry Conlon:

something that costs one Euro, are you going to risk assess that and realize

Terry Conlon:

that there's a different way to deal with?

Terry Conlon:

So we need more.

Shaun:

Yeah, for sure.

Shaun:

So how can security professionals balance the escalating workplace

Shaun:

violence, but still having to prepare for physical intervention?

Terry Conlon:

A lot of it has to do with mindset.

Terry Conlon:

Again, we've seen.

Terry Conlon:

We've seen over the past 20 years.

Terry Conlon:

And since I came into the industry over here, again, if you weren't from

Terry Conlon:

Dublin, you're a foreigner insecurity.

Terry Conlon:

Now we're so diverse.

Terry Conlon:

Diversity inclusion is huge.

Terry Conlon:

We've we've people in the industry from all over the goal and from

Terry Conlon:

mainland Europe to the far east, to south America, to Africa.

Terry Conlon:

And again, those cultures, not mine, those mindsets are different.

Terry Conlon:

Um, The population as a whole is changing again and not inclusion

Terry Conlon:

is part of that as time goes by.

Terry Conlon:

But again, having the understanding, when you do go into another culture,

Terry Conlon:

that it is different, that the slightest thing can trigger and an

Terry Conlon:

unfortunate event and giving people the understanding that it is a different

Terry Conlon:

scenario, that things can happen.

Terry Conlon:

Different minorities, that we have, the nine grounds of discrimination in Ireland.

Terry Conlon:

That's not everywhere.

Terry Conlon:

And making people aware of those nine grounds that discriminate.

Terry Conlon:

And how to deal with them as something unfolds and again,

Terry Conlon:

conflict management, physical intervention following on from that.

Phelim:

But, but Terry, one thing I think is unclear to me as a generalist.

Phelim:

Where is the line when you suddenly say, you know,

Phelim:

Deescalation is not going to work.

Phelim:

I need to involve myself much more, you know, physically what, when,

Phelim:

when would that line be crossed and, and, and who would be best placed

Phelim:

to say that it's been crossed?

Terry Conlon:

And again, this is something that goes back down to, um, I keep

Terry Conlon:

going back to training and most of these skills can be taught, um, body language,

Terry Conlon:

personal space, understanding that if you intrude on somebody's personal space, you

Terry Conlon:

can, you can escalate a situation that doesn't necessarily need to be escalated.

Terry Conlon:

Individuals are intoxicated, whether it be drugs, illicit substances, alcohol,

Terry Conlon:

and knowing, and using the skills you've acquired throughout your training,

Terry Conlon:

that, that deals with those situations.

Terry Conlon:

And understanding when you've said you've reached a point

Terry Conlon:

in time where talking about.

Terry Conlon:

And perhaps now is the time to step in, but you must allow yourself

Terry Conlon:

the opportunity to deal with the situation, unless it's an extreme

Terry Conlon:

scenario where somebody arrived in and then you're into filing critical

Terry Conlon:

incident training and stuff like that.

Terry Conlon:

But again, knowing when to draw the line and knowing when to go above and beyond

Terry Conlon:

that, you've tried to speak, you've shown it to be, to be courteous to somebody,

Terry Conlon:

but now the time has come where that point is gone and you must step in and, and

Terry Conlon:

deal with a situation and, and mindset and training are just part of that.

Shaun:

Yeah, I think communication is key when, when dealing with

Shaun:

all of these people, unless you're trended dealing with, you know,

Shaun:

different violence situation.

Shaun:

And I think when people work on the doors, for instance, you know, you've

Shaun:

got a lot of situational awareness by repetition and continuously work and time

Shaun:

spent on there and you just get a sixth sense and, you know, When the time is

Shaun:

right where you have to step in and maybe remove someone from a situation you did.

Terry Conlon:

Absolutely.

Terry Conlon:

I would train the New York at the beginning of lockdown where we did

Terry Conlon:

the Alison instructor training.

Terry Conlon:

The big part of that was drills, drills, drills, drills, drills.

Terry Conlon:

There's no point in being trained in something.

Terry Conlon:

And when it happens, you haven't trained for us for four or five years.

Terry Conlon:

You just either forgotten no matter, no matter what it is.

Terry Conlon:

If it's bringing the bin out in the morning, if you haven't done it for 10

Terry Conlon:

years, you might forget how to deal with.

Terry Conlon:

So again, whatever level of skills are involved in it, unless you practice,

Terry Conlon:

unless you are aware of your scenarios is your situational awareness.

Terry Conlon:

Unless you put them into practice regularly.

Terry Conlon:

You know, everybody, everybody does a fire drill.

Terry Conlon:

So again, your conflict management is not.

Terry Conlon:

Yeah, that's

Shaun:

something we spoke about on lots of the podcasts.

Shaun:

skill fade is huge, you know, in your med training, you drive a trading,

Shaun:

whatever it may be, unless you're carrying out these, refresh our training

Shaun:

and carrying out work, as part as your, your, your daily job, your daily routine,

Shaun:

then the skill fit does becoming.

Terry Conlon:

Absolutely.

Terry Conlon:

Yeah.

Terry Conlon:

And the problem we have with the problem I have, and many people

Terry Conlon:

have the licensing is once you, once you receive your license, you

Terry Conlon:

have a for life, there is no CPD.

Terry Conlon:

So whatever scales you've attained as, as, as little or as minor as they are

Terry Conlon:

in 10 years time, do you remember the same skill set that you have obtained

Terry Conlon:

if you're using them day to day?

Terry Conlon:

Yes, you will.

Terry Conlon:

But if it's something completely different, but it's manual handling

Terry Conlon:

conflict, resolutions, whatever it is.

Terry Conlon:

If you're not using them on a daily basis regularly, you will have.

Terry Conlon:

So that's the Q day is an element of the training that should be brought in.

Terry Conlon:

But again, with the unions involved, that's a different

Terry Conlon:

argument for different directions.

Shaun:

So what are some of the most difficult situations that you've had to

Shaun:

deal with that have competing priorities?

Shaun:

I guess some instances of that.

Shaun:

I mean, what if you're protecting a principal, but your principal is violent.

Shaun:

I guess you can't get torn between doing your job, but also

Shaun:

someone else may be the victim.

Terry Conlon:

Yeah, I'm doing the right thing.

Terry Conlon:

And again, that comes back down to training, to drills,

Terry Conlon:

to mindset, to culture, and to understanding how to do it.

Terry Conlon:

But if I just give you a snapshot of what I touched on again, last week,

Terry Conlon:

I just happened to do a quick survey.

Terry Conlon:

So what I looked at of 67 out of 200, Employees came back to me.

Terry Conlon:

So it was quite a short answer.

Terry Conlon:

I'm going to even asked Friday.

Terry Conlon:

And so I only had a week to kind of get this out there.

Terry Conlon:

So at 67 employees that have come back to me with those 67

Terry Conlon:

employees, 61 had witnessed a violent or verbally threatening

Terry Conlon:

incidents in the past six months.

Terry Conlon:

That's 91% of that.

Terry Conlon:

COVID.

Terry Conlon:

Had had witnessed.

Terry Conlon:

And then we looked at, have you been subjected to a violent incident?

Terry Conlon:

73% have been variably threatened or physically assaulted

Terry Conlon:

in the past six months.

Terry Conlon:

And that's really, really, really, really high.

Terry Conlon:

And the last one that I looked at was, have you considered a career change?

Terry Conlon:

And this is something we've looked at because our industry, especially in this

Terry Conlon:

country is finding out it's quite hard to attract people into the industry.

Terry Conlon:

We're losing individuals through COVID through, through rates,

Terry Conlon:

rates have come down and I looked at, have you considered a career?

Terry Conlon:

Resulting in conflict, resolutions, not being available, being

Terry Conlon:

assaulted and 55% of people.

Terry Conlon:

So 37 people out of 67 that said they had thought about leaving the industry

Terry Conlon:

and based on the questions that we pose to them and that's concerning.

Terry Conlon:

So are they being given the level of training?

Terry Conlon:

Are they being given the support and is it being taken seriously?

Terry Conlon:

So 55% of people looking to leave the industry or

Terry Conlon:

considering it is a high number.

Shaun:

Yeah.

Shaun:

They're pretty government statistics right there.

Phelim:

And Terry, I guess.

Phelim:

We talk a lot to colleagues in the UK or outside, but not often, uh, Ireland.

Phelim:

And, and, and, and for me, that's a shame because Ireland is so close.

Phelim:

Um, what should we better understand about the.

Phelim:

Uh, Irish security scene, as it were, you mentioned certain qualifications

Phelim:

that are specific to Ireland.

Phelim:

Um, uh, obviously response to COVID has been different.

Phelim:

Uh, you know, that, that's one thing that we hear about, but what else

Phelim:

should we know about when we're trying to interact with our colleagues over.

Terry Conlon:

That's probably the best question you could ever ask me.

Terry Conlon:

And if I had a premeditated, if that's the question I would've given you to

Terry Conlon:

ask me, because we see it quite a lot with, with companies that come in from

Terry Conlon:

overseas, whether it's the UK at the moment, we see it from the far east and

Terry Conlon:

from Australia completely work with.

Terry Conlon:

And again, they're not familiar with the legislation, the biggest takeaway,

Terry Conlon:

and it kind of snaps as I can give you is one of our clients is based

Terry Conlon:

in Ireland and her stores in the UK and out of 130 stores in the UK.

Terry Conlon:

In 2019, they had zero claims of cases of defamation zero in Ireland, within 30

Terry Conlon:

stores, they had 49 cases of defamation.

Terry Conlon:

I'm going to speak about defamation.

Terry Conlon:

You're looking to qualify privilege in terms of a security guard,

Terry Conlon:

asking for a receipt and the various connotations that flow with that.

Terry Conlon:

But we, we see defamation again, flipping back to training.

Terry Conlon:

It's like the whiplash of 15, 20 years ago.

Terry Conlon:

If somebody has stopped them, there's an ongoing case at the

Terry Conlon:

moment involving a major, major overseas retailer was fighting this.

Terry Conlon:

And, but from our perspective, looking at the disparity between the UK, for

Terry Conlon:

example, which is literally an hour from where I am at the moment to

Terry Conlon:

go to Nuri and Dublin, between the defamation cases that don't exist.

Terry Conlon:

In the UK or in the mainland and the defamation cases that are happening on

Terry Conlon:

a weekly or daily basis in Ireland is vast and huge for me, for somebody that's

Terry Conlon:

set up in Ireland from the UK, that is fundamentally the biggest challenge

Terry Conlon:

when it comes to the security industry.

Terry Conlon:

And that's where training and many of my colleagues we've spoken about.

Terry Conlon:

If training is.

Terry Conlon:

If the correct protocols are put in place, this cannot be

Terry Conlon:

mitigated when unfortunately for various reasons it's not done.

Terry Conlon:

Um, again, if you look at this time of year, people want an

Terry Conlon:

extra 50 security guards for.

Terry Conlon:

I Friday, you know, companies do not have 50 security guards and

Terry Conlon:

warehouse stoma for black Friday.

Terry Conlon:

So what does that mean?

Terry Conlon:

You might have 50 security guards that aren't trained correctly and

Terry Conlon:

you haven't been given the necessary support and the fall out the following

Terry Conlon:

week or in subsequent weeks might be an exponential growth in cases of defamation.

Terry Conlon:

So for me, the defamation between the UK and Ireland is, is, is, is

Phelim:

vast.

Phelim:

And, and forgive me.

Phelim:

In my mind, defamation is a sort of a lawsuit brought against people

Phelim:

that write something or say something that someone else says is not true.

Phelim:

Um, what, what does it mean in practice?

Phelim:

Um, are we talking someone.

Phelim:

Good questions, their integrity as a security professional.

Phelim:

What, what does it

Terry Conlon:

really mean?

Terry Conlon:

It, yeah, so, so when we look at defamation, we look at liable and

Terry Conlon:

we look at slander, you know, so liable is the written format or it's

Terry Conlon:

something that's set on the internet or on the TV, something that's

Terry Conlon:

there forever for somebody to see.

Terry Conlon:

And until witness we're dealing more with.

Terry Conlon:

In terms of the spoken word.

Terry Conlon:

So when an officer approaches a staff member, when he hasn't followed the

Terry Conlon:

scone acronym, which is the approach, selection, concealment, observation,

Terry Conlon:

non-payment and exit, where he perhaps has missed one of those and, and he stops

Terry Conlon:

and questions and member of the public is leaving the store and they in fact have

Terry Conlon:

a receipt or they have purchased an item.

Terry Conlon:

Now they're in earshot of somebody else.

Terry Conlon:

And a good name has allegedly been taken.

Terry Conlon:

And now they will contact the, uh, the client who in turn will

Terry Conlon:

contact those to indemnify them.

Terry Conlon:

And we could be looking at anything from 500 to 10,000 year old settlement based

Terry Conlon:

on what a security officer has said.

Terry Conlon:

Not really for the moment.

Terry Conlon:

What

Phelim:

is it?

Phelim:

I mean, this is perhaps a question for UK colleagues, but, but, but why, why

Phelim:

do you think Terry, that it's more of an issue in Ireland than it is in the UK?

Phelim:

Is it literally that it is the law or it's that more people go down that route?

Terry Conlon:

So it's really, so social media hasn't been the people, they was

Terry Conlon:

taking out their mobile phone and they want to show themselves straight away.

Terry Conlon:

And obviously the GDPR stuff has come in and they request the CCTV footage.

Terry Conlon:

It has to be given to them under the data protection.

Terry Conlon:

Then we've also got, it's an easy touch that if something does go to court

Terry Conlon:

under civil law, it's at the whim of.

Terry Conlon:

And costs are not awarded against the plaintiff.

Terry Conlon:

If they're not successful, costs are awarded against the defendant.

Terry Conlon:

Uh, we called it ended up in high court, even the circuit court, um, and

Terry Conlon:

we're taking a chance and unfortunately as much as we want to fight them

Terry Conlon:

on where we feel we could win, if we haven't ticked every single box.

Terry Conlon:

And even if we have, there is a small chance that the

Terry Conlon:

judge could award against us.

Terry Conlon:

And again, you might not be feeling familiar with supermax over here,

Terry Conlon:

but you have look at the supermax.

Terry Conlon:

There are a big, fast food.

Terry Conlon:

And again, there are data moments, slip trips, and falls with pat McDonogh is

Terry Conlon:

the CEO of supermax in a recent article.

Terry Conlon:

Last year, he wrote the, he paid out more in costs than he had

Terry Conlon:

in claims for the previous year.

Terry Conlon:

So the associated costs consultancy more than the claims themselves.

Terry Conlon:

So the fear factor of going to court to fight these cases.

Terry Conlon:

Uh, in combination with everything else I've spoken about, companies

Terry Conlon:

will not take the chance.

Terry Conlon:

They would rather settle for a thousand Euro than perhaps having

Terry Conlon:

to pay 40, 50 or $60,000 in court.

Phelim:

And I know, you know, thus far we've been talking a

Phelim:

lot about private security in a retail context or a man guarding.

Phelim:

Obviously our listenership is primarily in the bodyguard, AP CP space,

Phelim:

but also, you know, men guarding.

Phelim:

There are, uh, there are, there are colleagues of course, that are,

Phelim:

that are part of this, uh, arena.

Phelim:

Do you think this is a problem for the EPC P space?

Phelim:

Maybe?

Phelim:

Just by holding somebody whilst your principal goes by.

Phelim:

Um, or maybe by saying something, maybe this might happen more in the world of

Phelim:

celebrity bodyguarding I don't know.

Phelim:

Is this a common complaint there as well?

Terry Conlon:

It's not a common complaint.

Terry Conlon:

It's not something.

Terry Conlon:

So when we look at corporate security, we look at the executive protection sector.

Terry Conlon:

It's not something, again, it will be a smaller sector than

Terry Conlon:

the retail sector would be.

Terry Conlon:

It hasn't quite reached that and holding somebody against their

Terry Conlon:

will, again, false imprisonment.

Terry Conlon:

That is something like don't want to see it happen.

Terry Conlon:

And it's not something that, that does occur on a, on a, on a vast quantity.

Terry Conlon:

So it's not something that we will be concerned about, but listen, the way

Terry Conlon:

things have gone, it could happen.

Terry Conlon:

But again, on the volume that that occurs, it's not something that I'm aware.

Phelim:

Okay.

Phelim:

Luckily, no, I like that.

Phelim:

But, um, but I'm glad I asked because maybe, and this is a hopeful guest.

Phelim:

Maybe it's not happening because AP is so good at this escalation, that endeavor,

Phelim:

I guess, that I'd like to believe.

Phelim:

So.

Phelim:

So what else should, let's say an MP or.

Phelim:

Uh, colleague better know when operating in the Irish environment.

Phelim:

Um, I bet lots of people come in thinking, oh, it's just going

Phelim:

to be exactly the same as the UK environment apart from defamation.

Phelim:

And that was an eye-opener for me.

Phelim:

Is there anything else that you'd recommend?

Terry Conlon:

It's a lot smarter.

Terry Conlon:

So again, it's a really, really small niche.

Terry Conlon:

Um, most of the tasks will occur overseas and there are small tasks

Terry Conlon:

that do happen in and around Ireland.

Terry Conlon:

Um, but it is a small scene.

Terry Conlon:

And again, even traveling to the UK or overseas again, and my

Terry Conlon:

brother-in-law's in Libya at the moment.

Terry Conlon:

That's where he's going.

Terry Conlon:

He just two months old he's home for now.

Terry Conlon:

So most tasks, it's a small industry, so it will happen overseas, but we haven't

Terry Conlon:

reached and I don't envisage that.

Terry Conlon:

We will see the kind of industry that's in the UK or in the states

Terry Conlon:

because the country is so small.

Terry Conlon:

The, the licensing, for example, the close protection license,

Terry Conlon:

the guys hold an SIA license.

Terry Conlon:

And because the present is not a PAs PSA and variant on that, not something that's

Terry Conlon:

been looked at at the moment as well.

Terry Conlon:

So the training is there with a PSA licensing is still to come, right?

Phelim:

So we have, then this final quickfire question, which we want

Phelim:

to integrate, because I think it's useful for every sort of session.

Phelim:

What have we learnt then?

Phelim:

What have we learnt throughout our discussion?

Phelim:

We're talking workplace violence.

Phelim:

We're talking about training and we're talking about maybe

Phelim:

reflections on, on Ireland.

Phelim:

Uh, if we, if we were to sum it up, um, and, and Sean, you

Phelim:

know, please let me know if.

Phelim:

Uh, the way we want to sort of combine everything.

Phelim:

What, uh, what are we, what have we discovered, uh, going,

Phelim:

going through this exploration.

Terry Conlon:

And one of the

Shaun:

things that Terry said, which quite shocked me actually was was

Shaun:

your workplace survey that the levels of violence in the past six months

Shaun:

of incidents had to be witnessed.

Shaun:

Um, people who have became victims of.

Shaun:

And I think that shows the need for training, which you've you've, you know,

Shaun:

you've said on a number of occasions, it's just interesting hearing a survey

Shaun:

like that, hearing the figures I come back because I wouldn't have expected

Shaun:

it to be so high as what you've just you've said it's in the UK for instance.

Shaun:

Um, but yeah, it was quite shocked by then figures.

Phelim:

I like it.

Phelim:

And for me also, I I'm I'm.

Phelim:

Prompted by the level of different legislation, but yet the use

Phelim:

of the SIA license in Ireland.

Phelim:

I think that's a useful takeaway as well.

Phelim:

Um, I guess moving forward, you know, we will come to do our workplace

Phelim:

violence forum again, maybe next year.

Phelim:

Do you envision.

Phelim:

And I, I mean, this is an open question, really not loaded.

Phelim:

Do you envisage more workplace violence as, as we move forward,

Phelim:

more confusing workplace violence?

Phelim:

Because for example, on the podcast, uh, not the podcast, the event we

Phelim:

had on Friday, we, we did talk about victims that could become violent.

Phelim:

And we did talk about victims that attract violence to the workplace, which was a

Phelim:

direction I was not looking to go into, but it, but it really opened my eyes.

Phelim:

But tell me what, what, what do you think could be installed?

Terry Conlon:

I would like to do is I'd like to look at this survey again in

Terry Conlon:

six months time, and it's something that I'm going to park off site now and look

Terry Conlon:

at again in the future, but looking at it at the moment that the way COVID is

Terry Conlon:

traveling, the way people's mindset is looking around the various cities, seeing

Terry Conlon:

the feedbacks, get that comeback on a day and it's not getting any better.

Terry Conlon:

That's that's all I can say.

Terry Conlon:

And so I would not be surprised if we're kind of in and around the same

Terry Conlon:

numbers in six months, time or even more.

Phelim:

Okay, now that's a stock figure, but I think it's worth exploring.

Phelim:

And, uh, it's, it's great to, uh, to, to get your perspective on this.

Phelim:

And, and it's a nice sort of segue from, uh, our events to our podcast,

Phelim:

to a magazine, you know, and, and I think, I think combining it all is,

Phelim:

is really what we're looking for.

Phelim:

So, uh, from Sean and myself, Terry, this has been a fantastic look at workplace.

Phelim:

And a little, uh, look at the Irish security scene.

Phelim:

I think that was a very good, uh, thing to do.

Phelim:

Uh, it's been a pleasure having you on, uh, we look forward to seeing

Terry Conlon:

you soon, take care, have a great day.

Phelim:

well, I don't know about you, Sean, but I was certainly surprised.

Phelim:

At how similar yet different the Irish security sector is.

Phelim:

And of course I'm surprised at that survey that Terry did.

Phelim:

I'm really grateful.

Phelim:

We didn't do it in a concerted effort together.

Phelim:

It's just pure chance that he had done it.

Phelim:

And we also were looking at it.

Phelim:

I think that speaks volumes about workplace violence as a topic.

Phelim:

Uh, what do you think, Sean?

Phelim:

No,

Shaun:

I agree again, as I mentioned it.

Shaun:

Podcast it take quite short may as well and figure certainly, um,

Shaun:

I w I wouldn't be expecting that in the UK and Ireland is so close.

Shaun:

So it was, it was quite, quite shocking figures, but what it goes to show,

Shaun:

you know, the need for training and continuation of training, which we've

Shaun:

spoken about a lot on the podcast, in a number of different areas.

Shaun:

You know, if you're a young security guard door supervisor, AP professional,

Shaun:

and you you're just starting out.

Shaun:

It's, you know, it's fresh, you're fresh to that industry.

Shaun:

You're learning your you're learning your trade.

Shaun:

As we discussed, you know, the longer you spend carrying out your role or carrying

Shaun:

out training, the more experience you get.

Shaun:

Um, I think we described as you know, you get a sixth sense, you know, your,

Shaun:

your situational awareness increases, you get a better perception of things

Shaun:

of when the, The light to be crossed.

Shaun:

When do you go from the communication and the escalation to that point

Shaun:

where you have to physically remove someone from a situation.

Shaun:

And I think all individuals are different.

Shaun:

They'll deal with this in a different way.

Shaun:

And Yeah.

Shaun:

The more, the more times you put in these situations, the more adept

Shaun:

you've come up dealing with it.

Shaun:

So yeah, training is a huge

Shaun:

area.

Phelim:

It is, and it doesn't seem to matter the cost because what you need

Phelim:

to think about is the opportunity cost.

Phelim:

If you do engage in physical altercations, no matter how correct

Phelim:

you are, it doesn't look good.

Phelim:

Right?

Phelim:

You don't want to get to that situation.

Phelim:

So, so, so I, I think people will sometimes say, you know, Y, what if

Phelim:

I spend too much money on training or I don't have enough budget,

Phelim:

or I don't want to send my, uh, colleagues offer for training, but the

Phelim:

alternative is, you know, traumatic, even if you're in the right, even

Phelim:

if you're legally in the right.

Phelim:

Um, the, the, the other thing that I really found interesting was, uh, Terry's

Phelim:

prediction, almost that defamation is.

Phelim:

Get an, you know, become an even bigger issue because that's not something at all.

Phelim:

I would have imagined here.

Phelim:

I would have imagined, uh, all sorts of other conundrums, but not defamation

Phelim:

as, as a topic, stopping somebody in a store and seeing, excuse me, I

Phelim:

believe you might be a shoplifter.

Phelim:

I didn't think would land you in hot water.

Phelim:

Um, but the same thing could be true of AP and CP colleagues.

Phelim:

Maybe they're just better at the escalate.

Phelim:

So aside from that addition, 61 of the circuit magazine is going to come out.

Phelim:

Uh, we're looking for more contributors perhaps in workplace violence,

Phelim:

but, uh, what else could we be asking them to help us with Shawn?

Shaun:

We should, we said this a number of times, anything that's of interest

Shaun:

to anyone working in the industry can be medical, driving, training, celebrity

Shaun:

protection, anything that's of interest.

Shaun:

The, to take something away and think, yeah, maybe I can

Shaun:

learn something from that.

Shaun:

And you know, many people will read an audit they'll and they'll

Shaun:

have their own opinion on it.

Shaun:

Maybe they wouldn't agree with something.

Shaun:

Maybe they take something away from it.

Shaun:

But I think whether you agree or disagree, you can absorb the information

Shaun:

and do with it, what you wish.

Shaun:

You know, if you don't agree with it, you can pull that to one side

Shaun:

and think I wouldn't do it that way.

Shaun:

Maybe I'll do it this way.

Shaun:

And it'll get you thinking.

Shaun:

How have you made it through.

Shaun:

Anything of interest to the security industry is very welcomed within

Shaun:

the pages of the circuit magazine.

Phelim:

And in fact, giving feedback.

Phelim:

In the BPA connect app or the Napa protect app is ideal.

Phelim:

Um, and, and don't be a, a, you know, a shy reader.

Phelim:

If you like something or you want to see more of something every time

Phelim:

we post in the BBA connect app, or maybe you make your own posts, say,

Phelim:

you know, This topic, I want more of it, or conversely, if you disagree,

Phelim:

absolutely voice your disagreement.

Phelim:

Uh, I, I think I mentioned before when I put forward the idea, when we did

Phelim:

a robot session with Mark Farmer, I said, do we want robots or a census or

Phelim:

augmented technology to relieve some more mundane tasks for the protector.

Phelim:

People had a lot of opinions.

Phelim:

So in that same vein, we want more of those opinions.

Phelim:

Great.

Phelim:

Well, please like, and share this podcast so we can grow the

Phelim:

community from Sean and myself.

Phelim:

It's been great to talk to Terry Connell and to.

Phelim:

And we look forward to welcoming you to another fantastic edition of the Circuit

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The Circuit Magazine Podcast
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